Should I Place the Lordvessel with Frampt or Kaathe? A Dark Souls Dilemma
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The burning question that plagues every Dark Souls player upon acquiring the Lordvessel: Frampt or Kaathe? The answer, as with most things in Lordran, isn’t straightforward, hinging entirely on your desired gameplay experience, build, and ending.
If you’re seeking PvP dominance and the allure of the Darkwraith Covenant, pledge your allegiance to Kaathe. This grants you the Red Eye Orb for infinite invasions and access to the Dark Hand weapon. However, siding with Kaathe locks you out of Frampt’s services and commits you to the “Dark Lord” ending.
If you prefer a more traditional playthrough, want to continue feeding titanite to Frampt for souls, or aim for the “Linking the Fire” ending, Frampt is your go-to serpent. Choosing Frampt excludes you from the Darkwraith Covenant and permanently removes Kaathe from the game.
Ultimately, the choice is yours, Undead. Consider the consequences carefully before making your decision. This decision impacts the endings in the game.
Understanding the Serpent’s Offerings
Before diving deeper, let’s break down what each serpent offers:
Kingseeker Frampt: The Ancient Guide
Frampt presents himself as a guide, urging you to fulfill your destiny by linking the fire and ushering in a new Age of Fire. His “benefits” include:
- Titanite Consumption: Frampt can break down titanite shards into souls, a potentially useful (though often inefficient) source of currency. He gives increased souls for items he likes such as things related to Gwyn.
- Transportation: He can transport you to the Firelink Altar after obtaining the Lordvessel (but beware, you can Homeward Bone out without placing it!).
- The “Link the Fire” Ending: Placing the Lordvessel with Frampt sets you on the path to the traditional ending, where you sacrifice yourself to prolong the Age of Fire.
Darkstalker Kaathe: The Whisperer of the Abyss
Kaathe, hidden deep within the Abyss after defeating the Four Kings, offers a drastically different perspective. He believes the Age of Fire should end, ushering in the Age of Dark ruled by humanity. His offerings include:
- The Darkwraith Covenant: Joining this covenant is the primary reason to side with Kaathe. You gain the Red Eye Orb for unlimited invasions and the Dark Hand, a unique weapon that drains humanity. By stealing humanity from players and offering it to Kaathe, you increase your covenant level.
- The “Dark Lord” Ending: Placing the Lordvessel with Kaathe commits you to the alternate ending where you refuse to link the fire, embracing the Age of Dark.
Weighing the Consequences
The decision to side with Frampt or Kaathe isn’t purely about immediate rewards. It has long-term consequences for your playthrough and the story’s conclusion.
The PvP Factor
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Kaathe is King: For players focused on Player vs Player (PvP) combat, Kaathe and the Darkwraith Covenant are almost essential. The Red Eye Orb’s unlimited invasion capabilities are invaluable for honing your skills and terrorizing other players.
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Frampt’s Irrelevance: Frampt offers nothing of value to PvP enthusiasts. His titanite consumption is negligible compared to other soul-farming methods.
The Roleplaying Element
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Choosing a Side: The choice between Frampt and Kaathe allows you to align yourself with opposing ideologies. Do you believe in perpetuating the Age of Fire through sacrifice, or do you embrace the Age of Dark and humanity’s ascendance?
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The Endings: The ending you achieve significantly impacts the narrative. “Linking the Fire” is seen as the more “good” and “canon” ending, while the “Dark Lord” ending is the more radical and unconventional.
The Practical Considerations
- Titanite Consumption: While Frampt’s ability to consume titanite for souls is technically helpful, the soul yield is generally too low to be worthwhile. There are more efficient ways to acquire souls.
- Covenant Consequences: Leaving the Darkwraith Covenant will result in a penalty.
Navigating the “Trick”
The game often subtly pushes you towards Frampt. He’s more readily available, and his dialogue is less overtly “evil” than Kaathe’s. However, knowing the consequences allows you to make an informed decision.
Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs)
1. What happens if I place the Lordvessel without talking to either Frampt or Kaathe?
If you jump down to Firelink Altar and place the Lordvessel without interacting with either serpent, both Frampt and Kaathe will disappear for the remainder of the current New Game (NG) cycle. This prevents you from joining the Darkwraith Covenant or utilizing Frampt’s titanite consumption.
2. Can you side with Kaathe after placing the Lordvessel with Frampt?
No. Once you place the Lordvessel with Frampt, Kaathe will no longer appear in the Abyss after defeating the Four Kings. You’re locked out of the Darkwraith Covenant for that playthrough.
3. What are the rewards of the Kaathe Covenant (Darkwraiths)?
Joining the Darkwraiths awards you with the Red Eye Orb (unlimited invasions) and the Dark Hand (a melee weapon that drains humanity). By offering humanity to Kaathe you increase your covenant level. You will also eventually get the Dark Armor Set.
4. What happens if I talk to Frampt after talking to Kaathe?
Frampt will call you a “forry sool” and express disappointment in your choice to align with Kaathe.
5. Is the Dark Hand any good in Dark Souls 1?
The Dark Hand is a unique weapon with decent damage and the ability to steal humanity. However, its defenses are weak. Its usefulness depends on your build and playstyle. If you’re using heavy armor with good poise then the dark hand is better. If you like being staggered by dagger attacks then yeah, it’s okay.
6. Does Frampt give more souls for certain items?
Yes, Frampt gives increased souls for things he likes, especially items related to Gwyn. He has preferences.
7. Is Frampt lying in Dark Souls?
Frampt’s “lie” is in his subtle manipulation. He doesn’t necessarily intend for you to become the new Lord, but rather to become fuel for the fire, perpetuating the Age of Fire at the expense of humanity.
8. Can I hit Frampt to wake him up? Will he become hostile?
Yes, you can hit Frampt once to wake him up. He will not become hostile.
9. What happens if I join the Darkwraith Covenant and then leave?
You will lose half of your covenant rank upon leaving. However, you can rejoin the covenant later in the same playthrough, provided you haven’t angered Kaathe.
10. Why is Kaathe not in the Abyss after I defeat the Four Kings?
Kaathe will only appear in the Abyss if you have the Lordvessel in your inventory and haven’t placed it yet. Talking to Frampt first triggers his transportation to the Firelink Altar and locks you out of meeting Kaathe.
11. Is Kaathe a villain?
Kaathe’s intentions are morally ambiguous. He seeks to usher in the Age of Dark, potentially unleashing the power of the Abyss. Whether that makes him a villain is a matter of perspective.
12. Which souls should I feed to Frampt?
You should feed Frampt souls that are worth less than consuming them for souls, to ensure you are getting more. For example, you can sell him all normal soul shards for 500; therefore, feeding Frampt Soul of a Lost Undead and Large Soul of a Lost Undead (worth 200 and 400 souls respectively) is more beneficial than consuming them directly.
13. Can you join Darkwraith if you talk to Frampt and he takes you to the Firelink Altar?
Yes, you can talk to Frampt and allow him to transport you to the Firelink Altar, but Homeward Bone out before placing the Lordvessel. As long as you haven’t placed the Lordvessel, you can still meet Kaathe and join the Darkwraiths.
14. What does Frampt want?
Frampt wants to perpetuate the Age of Fire by having you sacrifice yourself to link the fire. He works for the gods and is against the rise of humanity.
15. What is the best order to do the DLC and Sif?
You can complete the DLC before fighting Sif. It even adds a new cutscene to the Sif fight, providing additional lore if you do so.
Making Your Choice
The decision to place the Lordvessel with Frampt or Kaathe is a crucial turning point in Dark Souls. Consider your playstyle, your preferred ending, and your commitment to either the Age of Fire or the Age of Dark.
And remember, the true beauty of Dark Souls lies in the freedom to forge your own path, even if that path is paved with the souls of your enemies.
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